Tuesday, November 1, 2011

Head Banging Rant

Do you ever feel like you're beating your head up against a brick wall that's never going to give no matter how hard you beat on it? It's been one of those weeks and it's only Tuesday.

Why is it that most writers only want to discuss ( bsp - promote ) their own work? Are we that jealous of other writers that we refuse to say in a public forum, "Hey, here's a great short story, you should go read it, like right now!" Or do they not read short stories and only use their own short story work to promote their novels?

I love short stories and I know that there are thousands of writers and readers out there who feel the same way I do. And yes, they review and share and promote other writers, but some days it feels like such a minority for a form of writing that has been around since words first hit paper.

And why is that when a new crime imprint opens shop there are no women writers included in that long list of writers they've signed on?

Point being. Why should women even bother writing dark crime fiction if they're going to be totally ignored unless publishers can roll them into that romance/cozy hole they love women to fill? I can count on my fingers and toes the number of women who are considered noir writers, whose work is treated with the same respect as their male counterparts.

Okay, done with my rant, think I'll go hide under my blanket for the rest of the week.

20 comments:

Heath Lowrance said...

It's a good point you make about women crime writers, but I really do think it's getting better. There are several now who play just as rough as the boys, and I think they're getting their proper respect for it.
As far as writers who promote their own work and ignore others, well... yeah, I've seen it happen but I think the crime fiction community on-line is generally pretty supportive of each other.
I sound like I'm nay-saying all your points, don't I? Ha... I don't mean to. I totally understand your frustration...

Chris Rhatigan said...

It's about time that certain outlets signed on more female writers. Certainly with more small e-book publishers around I really hope to see books from Cindy Rosmus, Jane Hammons, Holly West, Mel Clayton, Eva Dolan, etc.

From my perspective, I think the crime community is generally supportive. Or at least that's been my experience. Most stories get a good number of comments and there are a number of blogs that provide links and reviews. Although there are some venues where the BSP is just endless... and pointless.

Kent said...

I can only speak for myself, of course, but when considering short stories to run on Shotgun Honey, all that matters is that it's either a good story or not a good story. I could care less about gender, race, species, or if the story came from a head in a fishbowl. Good or bad, that's it.*

At the same time, I love when we get and are able to accept a story by a woman that flies a big ol' middle finger in the faces of those who say "women don't write that kind of thing". Because even though I don't think that way, there are still plenty who do, and no shortage of folks willing to listen and buy into that kind of crap.


*Unless you reside on my shitlist. In that case, you're an asshole and should go play in traffic.

Clair D. said...

I honestly think there is a, amongst some people, an unrealized bias. They see a female name as the author and they perceive the story differently-- lighter, more home/ family oriented, less believable or something.

It reminds me of when I got shuffled off to work receiving back in my retail days. This was unloading the trucks for the store-- lifting up to 50 pound boxes, though most were in the 20 pound range. I had no trouble lifting and hauling the boxes and never comlained about the weight or the physical labor. But when the person who normally got on the trunk to load the boxes to the conveyor for sorting was absent, I said I'd do it. Really no different than taking boxes off the converyor and moving to carts, but the other employees protested that it was too hard for me and were flabbergasted that I "lasted" the two hours until break. (The biggest problem was that the truck is not temperature controlled, so it was flesh-meltingly hot in there.) My past performance clearly had no bearing on my co-workers perception of the job(s) I could do.

And, yeah, I get bothered by, well, not just writers, but people who only talk about themselves. With some short story writers, I'm guessing that to them, there is no point to shorts other than promotion, so they so single-minded in their thinking. Though, social awkwardness may also play a role... I know if I get with someone who does ask a lot of questions, I'll keep answering without remembering to reciprocate (and as it is, I'm really bad with small talk.)

pattinase (abbott) said...

What annoys me especially is when I see a list of books someone has read or intends to read and they are all written by men. I see this over and over again.
Sometimes I think most readers only read a certain kind of book. And that goes for women too. Very few people read a very wide range of books.
Lots of other things along these lines annoy me lately but I'll keep them to myself.

Thomas Pluck said...

If I like something, I shout about it. I was like that before I wrote, and that's how I am now. I'd get bored of tooting my own horn. Even if I could reach. *rimshot*

As for women in crime fiction, they write some of the best. Ignore them at your peril. The Lost Children anthology- which I thank you for mentioning yesterday- has 15 men and 15 women. By pure chance. Ron, Fiona and I just voted on the stories we liked, and it took 2 votes to get in.

I don't know if crime imprints discriminate, or if they expect women to write craft cozies or romance charading as mystery. I cut my teeth on Barbara Block's pet store myseries... which were far from cozy. Her protagonist beat a guy up with a bludgeon and threatened to bite his eyeball out. She had her mouth on his eye socket. As you can see, that image stuck with me. So I guess I never expected anything different, or "less" from a woman crime writer.

I think a lot of it is marketing. Even crime is a pigeon hole. But they've got us categorized down to whether we have an inny or an outie, these days. I'm sure female readers discriminate as well, I like the Murderati t-shirt: real men read books by women.

sandra seamans said...

It is improving, Heath, and yes, the ladies are getting down and dirtier but why do they have to? There is a darkness in women's lives that is more hurtful than a punch to the gut or a knife in the back, yet that darkness is shunted off as literary or horror. And for the most part not considered crime fiction.

I wonder Chris, if more women will start e-pubbing their own work, rather than wait for a publisher to recognize what great crime stories they're writing.

For the most part, Kent, the online fiction community is a fairly level playing field. There are exceptions, but I've been told it's a matter of taste. The rant this morning came from realizing that a new market that's been causing a lot stir in the community completely shut out female writers. Again, it may just be a matter of the publisher's taste in writing.

I agree, Clair, it's a matter of perception and not just men, but women, too. There's no easy solution. One of the reasons so many women resort to initials and pen names, of course male romance writers have to do the same thing. :)

sandra seamans said...

I tend to read more men, Patti, because the only female crime writers my library stocked where of the artsy-crafty and cats solving mystery crimes books. I've been finding and enjoying more female writers since coming online because I know where to look now. :)

Marketing is definately at the core of the problem, Thomas. They want to be able to pigeon hole both the writer and the story instead of just accepting each story as it comes.

Sean Patrick Reardon said...

I don't care who writes what. If it is the genre(s)I like and is good, I'll read it and tell anyone who will listen about it.

As I have mentioned many times, Sandra, your blog provides a great service to writers, and readers. Thanks!

Nothing irritates me more than over self-promotion. In most cases it turns me against a writer(and their stories), or blogger. Especially the ones who don't even have the courtesy to respond if you visit their blogs and comment, even wishing them well most times. Basically they self-promo, visit blogs when they are schilling something, then vanish. Not to mention, the email lists you somehow end up on, filling you in with more self-promo. yikes!

Sure, every writer needs to do a bit, no prob at all with that (a new story or novel is a huge accomplishment and should be celebrated), but you also need to help out your fellow writers and readers too.

Anita Page said...

Sandra, I agree with everything you say. Not only is the darkness in women's lives more painful than a knife in the back, it can make for richer and more interesting story telling as well. Megan Abbott, who I think has redefined noir, and Denise Mina are two fine examples of that.

As for writers who view short stories as a means of promoting their novels--that's a whole other rant.

sandra seamans said...

Trying to find that perfect bsp balance is hard for many writers, Sean. Some writers have no trouble talking about themselves and their work and others try to fade into the woodwork. It's the most frustrating part of being a writer.

Both excellent examples, Anita! I'd add Laurie King's Kate Martinelli series and Minette Walters' books. I recently picked up Barbara Seranella's "No Human Involved" and was blown away by the character of Munch Mancini. The entire core of that book is darker than anything I've read in a long time.

Ron Scheer said...

Seems to me that the social media are being used more and more exclusively for promotion, period. I weary of it and find myself yearning for simple social discourse. Do people have anything on their minds anymore besides selling something?

sandra seamans said...

I don't think so, Ron. I stopped watching the news when the networks started using their news programs to sell their primetime programming. The whole world seems to be for sale.

Brian Lindenmuth said...

Chris,

If "Cindy Rosmus, Jane Hammons, Holly West, Mel Clayton, Eva Dolan, "

are shopping novels around then you know where to send them right :)?

Brian Lindenmuth said...

I think there are at least two threads of this discussion that require a more nuanced discussion.

1) As an editor I can only consider the works that are submitted to me. If no women submit then none get accepted.

2) There is an idea that is perhaps more prevalent in the SF/F community that it is the responsibility of the editor of an anthology to make sure that there is balance struck for inclusion of women writers and POC. If your ToC doesn't have enough women writers then you must go find some. If you don't then you will get called on it.

This idea has it's proponents and opponents.

This idea can also influence #1. Some would say that as a publisher I must track down female authors if need be.

Now let me talk specifics for a moment. As far as #1 is concerned. When Snubnose announced we had titles by female authors to include in the announcement. But. Speedloader was a total sausage party. I read and considered stories by women writers but ultimately went with six stories by male writers. Was I wrong to do so? Who's to say.

Regarding #2, Yes I approached Patti and Sandra about Snubnose publishing their respective collections but I didn't do so because of their genders.

Where does this leave us? With muddy waters I'm afraid.

I would like to do another Speedloader in 2012 and have tossed around the idea of it being a "ladies night" anthology.

***

And for the record I've been publicly called a sexist on at least three occasions that I'm aware of.

sandra seamans said...

Truth be told, with an anthology, I believe the strongest stories should be selected no matter who submits. I know that the sci-fi community has been in an uproar over this, but an anthology will only sell if it contains the best available stories.

As for the number of men vs women submitting, I personally have stopped submitting to several markets that rarely publish women writers. It's a waste of time when you know your story won't be selected, not because you're a woman but because your vision of noir isn't the same as the editor's.

And the publishing company that set me off, didn't open for submissions, the writers were invited to submit. Did they ask any women? I don't have the answer to that.

I do believe that there is a certain amount of bias against women in the noir genre. And that there are certain expectations of what a woman's story must include in order to be considered for publication.

I often wonder if a woman had written "Winter's Bone" if it would have been published as is or would a rewrite with a softer, kinder Ree Dolly would have been required.

Just wonderings, because trying to understand how this business works is nearly impossible.

Sandra Ruttan said...

I was offered a slot with a new e-pub start up which may well be the one you're referencing. I don't want to take the particulars of my decision public, but I have wondered since if I made the right decision about who should put out HARVEST.

At some point you just have to let that go. I just know if that's the e-pub in question, it wasn't for lack of trying that they launched all male.

I don't often pay attention to the genders at all and hadn't noticed, though.

sandra seamans said...

Usually I don't let things like that bother me too much, but that was just one too many logs on the fire for me this week and I let it rip.

People are going to publish what they believe is the best work, be it male or female. I can understand that. I just wish there were more females in the mix.
And that women's noir wasn't perceived as less dark because it deals, for the most part, within a family dynamic rather than the in the steet, beat 'em up style of men's fiction.

Sandra Ruttan said...

Well, if you ask me, it's a subject that we need to keep our feet to the fire on, but if anything the UK perception is that crime fiction written by women is darker than that of their male counterparts, in general.

Val McDermid would be a great person to interview on the subject. :)

I have wondered if we need to split out the categories for awards by gender as well. But I wouldn't want anyone to think it's because women can't compete.

sandra seamans said...

Haven't read any McDermid, but have discovered Minette Walters and she writes some very dark novels so I can understand the UK perception. I think with UK writers there's not the same "pressure", for want of a better word, to go for that happily ever after ending.

As for awards, I don't think splitting them up by gender would help. For the most part, they're generally a popularity contest and no matter who wins, someone feels wronged :)